Roundtable 4:
Leveraging Internal Feedback through Deploying Deliberate Comparison Processes for Online and Classroom Settings

Mairead Brady, Martin Fellenz, and Michelle MacMahon (Trinity College Dublin, Ireland) and David Nicol (University of Glasgow)

This roundtable focuses on comparison processes (Butler & Wynne, 1995; Nicol, 2013, 2019) that have a positive impact on self-directed student learning. This approach helps to provide feedback in a timely and manageable way by making student partners in their own learning. Comparison relevant tasks can be deployed across all learning settings including in the classroom, for individual and group assignments, and for online tasks and interactions. We will introduce a basic toolkit to implement this approach while also recognizing and leveraging existing comparison processes.

00:16:17 Anne Tierney: Hi Katharina
00:16:28 Rick Shelton: Thanks Glad to be here
00:16:37 Katharina Thülen (THM): Hi 🙂
00:16:38 Silke Bock: Hi everybody
00:17:08 Janina Tosic: Trinity College it is! Sorry, the zoom program gave me a different Institution!
00:25:20 Anne Tierney: Hi Sandra, Hi Noam
00:28:20 Elizabeth Black: So, with reference to an earlier discussion, could it be argued that an aspect of the ‘academic attitude’ is a state of conscious comparison?
00:29:18 David Nicol: Not sure what you mean elizabeth
00:29:18 Janina Tosic: That’s a great link of our earlier discussion with David’s ideas
00:29:21 Mairead Brady: Where in your practice do you use comparison?
00:30:06 michelle macmahon: I typically use comparison in providing concrete examples to students when introducing a concept
00:30:10 David Nicol: Academics when they evalaute student work are making comparisons as well as when they learn
00:30:19 Janina Tosic: I use it when students explain how they Approach a Problem. I have them compare it with other Problems we worked on before
00:30:44 Alexandra Lehmann: @ Elizabeth and David: if the ‘academic attitude’ is a state of conscious comparison – guess you could say so. but to strengthen ist not a personal comparison, but a professional one
00:31:04 Mairead Brady: Take a minute and write down (on paper or using the CHAT function) where you are already using comparison in your teaching practice.
00:31:23 Birgit Pitscheider: Students’ compare their video presentation performances to one another and to TED presenters
00:31:27 Anne Tierney: Case studies
00:31:27 michelle macmahon: I also like to ask a question to the class so students can hear each others response
00:31:28 I use comparison when I provide students with exemplars of an assignment and ask to rank them
00:31:31 David Nicol: We do compare our work against feelings so as to make emotional comparisons
00:31:38 Sigal Tifferet: rubrics, in class, educator feedbacjk, peer feedback
00:31:46 Anne Tierney: Grading rubrics
00:32:04 Janina Tosic: I also use it in teaching scientific writing. Students peer Review their work and I also give them papers to compare and then extract what makes a good Abstract, what makes a good title or a good experimental section etc.
00:32:07 michelle macmahon: referring back to the assignment is another useful comparison
00:32:08 I use peer review
00:32:15 Anne Tierney: Teaching observations (both ways) being observed and observing
00:32:16 Birgit Pitscheider: Essay posters
00:32:21 David Nicol: The key is making it explicit and deliberate – this is the most fundamental point
00:33:01 Mairead Brady: What are the outcomes for your students? What do you think they have learned from this?
00:33:32 Anne Tierney: Observations, they can get helpful tips for their own practice
00:33:32 michelle macmahon: They know what they think when they hear it or see it for themselves
00:33:39 Janina Tosic: students develop criteria for scientific writing themselves by abstracting from several examples (good and bad)
00:34:12 michelle macmahon: progress in their thinking
00:34:44 Students understand criteria of quality and develop a personal understanding of quality
00:35:29 Janina Tosic: yes, Anna! Isn’t that super empowering??? When they start to feel confident to evaluate the Quality of their own and other’s work?
00:35:31 michelle macmahon: expression on thought,
00:35:38 Elizabeth Black: Confidence in their ideas
00:37:18 David Nicol: Asking students how the other thing changed their thinking about their own work is a way of neutralising any negative emotional aspect and extending their understanding
00:37:35 David Nicol: The other thing – means the comparator
00:38:09 David Nicol: The instructions for comparison are critical
00:38:45 David Nicol: Different comparators create different internal feedback effects
00:39:11 David Nicol: Multiple comparisons generally increase the power
00:39:51 David Nicol: Staged comparisons focusing on areas that students have difficulty normally is also a way forward
00:40:41 Birgit Pitscheider: I become more of a moderator
00:40:55 Birgit Pitscheider: Q2
00:41:12 Silke Bock: ensure an open and fearless learning atmosphere and establish cooperation among Peers and educators
00:41:20 michelle macmahon: Q2: It empowers the students
00:41:41 Mairead Brady: What are the role(s) and impacts of these comparisons on your teaching practice? What are the outcomes for you?
00:41:51 David Nicol: Janina – yes that is a key benefit as were are always making assumptions
00:42:12 Janina Tosic: Yes! And many are wrong.
00:42:27 Anne Tierney: Getting them to reflect on their practice in the context of observing others helps them understand their practice, and helps me to see where their development is going
00:42:28 David Nicol: Asking students to select comparisons
00:43:24 Anne Tierney: Yes facilitator role is important
00:43:32 Janina Tosic: @David, that is a powerful idea to give them the authority over what they learn from
00:43:33 David Nicol: Puts feedback back in students hands where it exists anyway
00:43:49 Silke Bock: That is essential, thankyou
00:43:57 Birgit Pitscheider: @Alexandra: very good point, reciprocity
00:44:38 David Nicol: Feedback from the feedback that the students are generating
00:46:47 David Nicol: It is good to explain the idea to students – they take to it just like you are – it is so obvious when you hear it.
00:48:12 David Nicol: Just ask students what they are looking at and who they are talking to when they learn. Then they begin to understand better internal feedback
00:49:12 David Nicol: @Martin – they want re-assurance that what they are doing is valid. That is a role of the teacher to help them build that confidence
00:50:03 Tzachi milgrom: In some courses like photography and industrial design this is a natural part of the teaching and assessment process. We try to implement it also to other courses and it creates a fresh point of view to the sutdents and also to the teachers. But one should pay attention that this is something that must be constructive and professional.
00:50:54 Mairead Brady: great point – this is designing experiences.
00:51:13 Elizabeth Black: I find that something I have to say a lot to students – that there are a lot of different ways to get this right
00:52:02 Anne Tierney: Masters students have time against them. I think it’s very hard when you have a year to get a degree.
00:53:31 michelle macmahon: How long do we stay in comparison? It is a competition?
00:53:49 michelle macmahon: Developing our judgemental capacities
00:53:54 Mairead Brady: David asks the question – how would you change your work after comparing your work?
00:57:03 michelle macmahon: Moving to meta-learning
00:57:45 michelle macmahon: How do you compare, teach how
00:58:32 Actually, reading scientific papers is a way to compare our work as researchers to other’s work…
00:59:01 michelle macmahon: Valentina, I agree. Comparison is how we learn
01:00:11 Alexandra Lehmann: there are (older) studies About Children at School – if School doesnt grade the pupils assessments, pupils start to ask for grades. if you give them just grades, they are not Content either. so our students are used to being “jugged” from the beginning of their educational career
01:00:45 Alexandra Lehmann: (sorry for the strange tall and small writing. its the writing Programme…)
01:00:56 In terms of materials comparison, ranking exemplars is very powerful
01:01:23 michelle macmahon: students like exemplars because it gives a clear target
01:02:17 Silke Bock: Different view on Feedback
01:02:18 Mairead Brady: What is your key learning/take-away from this roundtable?
01:02:21 Birgit Pitscheider: Encourage students that they are the agents of their learning
01:02:33 Martin Fellenz: Q3: setting the scene for students – helpinbgtehm take responsibility for they clearing is crucial
01:02:45 Elizabeth Black: Q3 Comparison is a key academic process for students and teachers
01:02:49 Anne Tierney: Q3 My takeaway is that it aids development by making clear where students are and are not progressing. If they know then they can remedy it.
01:02:54 As a teacher, I will try to think about all possible comparisons that I can foster in my class
01:02:54 michelle macmahon: Comparison is natural yet we have do not use it explicitly often enough, I do not know why
01:02:57 Mairead Brady: Have students relate differently to their own development rather than waiting for but development of
01:03:04 Janina Tosic: I want to include this explicitely in the winter semester. In all kinds of ways. Used to do it alot when I taught scientific writing but not when I teach scientific “content”
01:03:07 Alexandra Lehmann: Q3: To reflect my own biography of Feedback and learning – what “made” me to the lecturer I am now? What experiences did I have as a pupil, as a Student? and how does this relect on my way of lecturing and giving Feedback/ letting students give and take Feedback?
01:03:18 And how I can make them explicit so that they become aware about this comparisons
01:03:21 maren lickhardt: thoughts on comparison
01:03:30 Comparison allows to overcome a transmission model of teaching
01:03:52 Janina Tosic: Yes, Valentina!
01:03:55 michelle macmahon: I will design my next teaching term with comparison as the driver of learning because I think this will help when online
01:04:08 Mairead Brady: What are you going to do differently in your own teaching practice after this roundtable?
01:04:36 Birgit Pitscheider: Make this idea clear to students – explicit
01:04:39 Anne Tierney: Q4 slowing down and stripping out content to leave more time to explore concepts in depth
01:04:41 Alexandra Lehmann: Q$: Make this Feedback process more explicit. talk to students About the base behind the “exercise” of Feedback.
01:04:53 michelle macmahon: Prepare the environment for comparisons. Let the students know what and why I am doing it and explicitly guide the process. Looking forward to it
01:04:55 Janina Tosic: Q3 comparison is natural and ubiquitous but internal and implicit
01:04:58 Elizabeth Black: Q4 make sure that the comparison (which is already there) is explicit. I am also intrigued by the idea of students choosing the comparison, but not sure how this would work.
01:05:03 Tzachi milgrom: Students will to compare in many aspects for the rest of their lives. We should teach them to do this properly and know how to accept the comparison
01:05:06 Mairead Brady: Slowly down is a great point
01:05:10 Silke Bock: Give opportunities to compare
01:05:23 Share with students the meaning of having them compare all the time
01:05:28 Anne Tierney: Q4 But! there is a tension when students want content – want to know the answer
01:06:11 Elizabeth Black: Clarifying the difference between comparison and judgement will also be important
01:06:37 I’ll decrease my lectures and improve ingroup comparative processes
01:06:40 Alexandra Lehmann: @ Elizabeth: Yeah!
01:07:15 Janina Tosic: Yes, Anne! Many just want me to explain everything and just give the right way. Students sometimes think they Need to learn this by heart and that means they understand and Can apply…
01:07:48 Elizabeth Black: One of the worst examples I have seen of students looking for the ‘answer’ was academics on an academic practice programme…
01:07:59 Birgit Pitscheider: David, when I give the credit can I show your slide to my students? Because I guess it helps when they see that research is done on this, it might be more persuasive
01:08:09 Janina Tosic: @Elizabeth 🙂
01:08:13 Anne Tierney: @Elizabeth oh yes, academics sometimes don’t make good students!
01:08:16 Silke Bock: Cooperation among educators is also important
01:09:22 Martin Fellenz:
01:10:03 Alexandra Lehmann: Sorry, Need to go. Was really interesting and I’ll definetly will try to Keep working on this. Thanks to all of you! will work on the Survey later… 😉
01:10:11 michelle macmahon:
01:10:23 David Nicol: @Elizabeth I wrote that point in my article but haven’t yet tried it. I also am intrigued by that
01:10:54 David Nicol: I asked a student what they thought and he said ‘why have we never done this before”
01:11:42 michelle macmahon: thank you all
01:11:48 Silke Bock: Thankyou very much this was very inspiring.
01:11:50 Rick Shelton: Thank you all.
01:11:51 Elizabeth Black: thanks
01:11:54 Thanks a lot, very useful session!!!
01:12:02 Anne Tierney: That was thought provoking. Thank you!
01:12:03 Katharina Thülen (THM): thx 🙂
01:12:06 Birgit Pitscheider: Thank you so much
01:12:07 Elizabeth Black: looking out the window – not really
01:12:08 maren lickhardt: Thank you
01:12:13 Thank you all of you!
01:12:17 Anne Tierney: I’m 18 degrees and sunny.
01:12:24 Martin Fellenz: Thank you all for joining us!
01:12:32 Janina Tosic: 21 and raining
01:12:47 Thanks
01:12:48 Anne Tierney: Bye
01:12:56 Thank you all!
01:13:04 Mairead Brady: thank you everyone that was great and stay in touch
01:13:20 Rick Shelton:
01:13:28 Mairead Brady:
01:14:03 Birgit Pitscheider: It says it is in 4 hours and 30 minutes 🙂

Please Join the Conversation:

[bbp-single-forum id=2177]